Category: Breeding Dogs (2024)

I admin a science-based Maremma Facebook group called Maremma Sheepdog Open Forum. One of the main goals of the group is to provide accurate, scientific and up to date information to anyone interested in this wonderful breed. We have had some great posts lately from people seeking to learn more about how to find an ethical breeder to buy Maremmas from, as well as how to choose breeding stock and make wise decisions forthose who would like to start their own breeding programs. These are such wonderful questions that I decided that I would start a series of blog posts on the topic, breaking down each area of importance and examining it further.

Thereare so many considerations when choosing a breeder: temperament and working ability (number one in my book), the health and soundness of the breeding stock, pedigrees, conformation, DNA testing, COI's, how the parent dogs are utilized by the breeder, (Are they true working dogs or just pretty lawn ornaments?), how the puppies are socialized both with stock and with people and in other ways. Puppies locked in a barn and barely handled are really no better than pampered pups raised by a pool as "estate guardians" with no stock exposure. Both are being deprived of what they need to grow into great LGD's. I can't cover all the things to look for in one post so I will start with one of the most important, in my book, the importance of sound hips in breeding dogs.

When I first began building my program I knew nothing about health testing and definitely knew little about Hip Dysplasia. I had previously bred small dogs and hadn't really owned many large breeds. I googled "health problems of Maremmas" and couldn't find much. I knew that Hip Dysplasia was a problem in many large breeds so I asked other Maremma owners and breeders about it and was mostly told "Maremmas don't get Hip Dysplasia". I was also told that Maremmas can be sensitive to anesthesia and this seemed to be a common reason some people gave for not doing radiographs on their breeding dogs. It definitely scared me. Who wants to send their dog for an elective procedure and risk losing it? What I later learned is that the first part is absolutely not true and is usually told by people who don't test their dogs because of financial reasons. And as for the risk of anesthesia I learned it's really very minimal. And after watching my own veterinarian perform procedures on several of my dogs under anesthesia I'm no more worried about anesthesia than I would be about any other risk.

My first Maremmas were unregistered so no one did hip testing on them. But when I decided to start breeding registered dogs I contacted a lot of MSCA breeders, looking for suitable dogs. I was surprised at the disparity I found. There were the breeders that did no hip testing at all. They told me things like "I've had these lines for years and none of the dogs have had hip dysplasia." Or the "Maremmas don't get HD" line. I almost fell for it but I decided if I was going to go to the expense of buying expensive breedingstock I needed more reassurance than that.

I bought only dogs from parents who had passing hip scores according to the MSCA. All were Code of Ethics breeders, but getting the hip testing info was a little tricky, and understanding it was even trickier. But I trusted that if they were a COE breeder they were breeding the best dogs possible and making all the right decisions. What I later learned was that some breeders use the Code of Ethics more as a marketing tool than anything else. The COE says that dogs should have at least a fair OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) score or a PennHip score of 0.51 or lowerto breed. So some breeders aim for the lowest passing score. As long as it passes they will breed it. That can be disastrous. What I didn't know until later is that while "fair" is passing you shouldn't breed a fair to a fair, or you have a higher chance of passing on hip dysplasia. And that a 0.51 PennHip score is really too high. The breed average is 0.42, so why does the Code of Ethics accept much higher scores? That's not a question I can answer but personally I want to breed better than average dogs.

Another thing that took me a really long time to learn and that was very shocking, is that some Code of Ethics breeders will breed a dog based on preliminary OFA scores. There are two ways you can score a dog's hips: PennHip or OFA. PennHip can only be done by specially trained vets with very expensive equipment. It costs a lot more to do than OFA ($600-700 the last time I had it done, about 2 years ago.) and the dog must be anesthetized to do it, but the results are accurate as early as 16 weeks.

For OFA rads the dog doesn't have to be anesthetized (though a good vet will insist on it) and it's much, much cheaper to do ($150-300 in my area) and any vet can do it. The drawbacks are that the interpretation is very subjective (the opinion of 3 vets, rather than the precise measurements of PennHip) and that you can't get a final score until the dog is 2 years old. That's a long time to wait to see if your dog will pass or fail. But most ethical breeders will do just that. They will wait. Sadly not all breeders are ethical.

With OFA you can test as early as 16 weeks, just like PennHip. The difference is that with OFA that's only considered a preliminary score. Why? Because the score often changes with age with OFA, and usually not for the better. I have heard a fellow Code of Ethics breeder lament that their dog had an "excellent" preliminary score but later was downgraded to fair. But this very same breeder routinely breeds dogs that are under 2 years old, based on their preliminary OFA scores. Their reasoning is that the COE doesn't say it has to be a final score, so they are within compliance. But just aiming for compliance wise, or ethical? What if they breed the dog and later it scores poorly? You could now have hip dysplasia in the gene pool and there's nothing you can do about it.

This breeder could get a PennHip exam on their dogs and know for sure but they feel that it's "too expensive". They could wait until the dogs are 2 years old and have had their final OFA exams done, but they feel that's "unfair" for them to wait. So they take a calculated risk with their breeding program. Which is their right to do. But let the buyer beware! If you buy from such a breeder it is YOU who are taking the risk! And I, for one, am not willing to take that risk, now that I fully understand it.

Luckily all my dogs passed their PennHip exams and received excellent scores, but it was pins and needles waiting for the results. But I was not so lucky. I know of people who have bought dogs under such conditions who not only didn't pass but who acquired hip dysplasia. The saddest case I have heard was a sweet dog named Marco, who was diagnosed with bilateral Hip Dysplasia at under a year old. This dog was bought for breeding and the buyer paid extra for breeding rights. The breeder offered the buyer no compensation at all. Not even the extra that was paid for breeding rights.The buyer had to purchase a new stud dog and Marco had to be neutered. He can't even work a full day as a LGD. He will live the rest of his life on expensive pain meds and joint supplements. So much for the "Maremmas don't get Hip Dysplasia" line. Tell that to Marco's owner.

Now I'm not saying that Marco's breeder purposely did anything unethical, and sometimes no matter how hard you try bad things happen. But I am saying that there most definitely is hip dysplasia in the breed, and the best way to prevent it is for breeders to make ethical breeding decisions and for buyers to do their research and ask lots of questions. And if you don't like the answers find another breeder!

Another sign of commitment in a breeder is whether they have requirements the owners and the dogs they sell must meet in order to get obtain breeding rights. Some breeders only require the buyer to pay more money and breeding rights are given, without knowing whether the dogs will pass or fail their testing, and with no plan for what will happen if they don't. (Or testing isn't required.) Other breeders either require hip testing to be done by the new owner in order to obtain breeding rights, or they do it themselves before the puppy is picked up, for an additional fee to cover the cost of the test. If the dog doesn't pass they aren't bred. We considered doing the PennHip on breeding candidates we sell but have chosen to have the new owners do it, so that they are showing a financial and ethical commitment before they can breed. All puppies leave here in Limited Registration, which is only changed to full if and when all the requirements of the contract are met, number one being a passing hip score not only for the dog purchased from us, but for any intended mate. And we never charge extra for breeding rights. Breeding rights are earned by the puppy and the owner, not bought.

Below are two radiographs of hip x-rays of Maremmas. One is of a dog with an impressive PennHip score. The other is of a nine month old female dog who was imported for breeding purposes but who failed her testing terribly. Even if you know nothing about judging radiographs its easy to see the difference. Which dog do you want in your breeding program? Or even just guarding your stock. Being a LGD is hard work. Hip Dysplasia isn't just painful. It can prevent a dog from doing the job it was bought to do. So if you think it only matters for breeding dogs think again. Marco's owner would beg to differ. She didn't just lose a breeding dog. She lost part of her work force. She loves Marco and wouldn't trade him for the world, but she will have to watch him deal with the effects of a disease that might have been prevented if different choices had been made. A disease that could be greatly reduced if breeders act in a truly ethical manner.

Above are photos of the rads on a 9 month old female dog that was imported for breeding, who failed her hip testing, and an 18 week old female puppy who has an incredible score of R 0.15 and L 0.14. I know which dog I would choose!

Below the scores of my current MSCA registered breeding dogs. This is what everyone should look for in a breeding dog. Embark testing, COI's - all that stuff is great, but no hips, no LGD's. Let's start with what really matters.

The Neonatal Period lasts for approximately the first 2 weeks. During this time the puppies eyes and ears are closed. We weigh the puppies daily, charting their progress on their individual record forms. Any pups that don't gain are supplemented with a little bit of either homemade or commercial goat milk formula. (We prefer homemade if we have goats in milk, or frozen milk previously stored from our goats.)

(I call the puppies "baked potatoes" during this time because that's what they look like!)

During the Neonatal Period we do Early Neurological Stimulation (ENS) and Early Scent Introduction (ESI) with the puppies. ENS and ESI are discontinued once the puppies' eyes begin to open, which is actually closer to 1-1.5 weeks for Maremma puppies.

Benefits of Early NeurologicalStimulation

• Improved cardio vascular performance (heart rate)
• Stronger heart beats
• Stronger adrenal glands
• More tolerance to stress
• Greater resistance to disease

​With Early Scent Introduction we focus mostly on introducing "farm scents" like goat hair, poultry feathers, hay and other scents to our puppies, mixing in a few household scents for variety. Interestingly enough every single one of Marcella's puppies showed a distinct interest in the goat hair scent, sticking their noses deep into the canister to sniff it.

Due to their Critical Learning Periods, puppies learn and retain more in the first 12 weeks than they ever will for the restof their lives. Raising puppies in an enriched environment has proventoresult in the following intellectual and emotional benefits:

•Improved ability to learn and remember
•More emotional stability
•Better resiliency to stress

In addition tosocializing our puppies to livestock from an early age, we also utilize a well laid out "Puppy Curriculum" to help them reach their full potential. We utilize Puppy Culture, Badass Breeder Curriculum,

• Puppy Culture
• Ultimate Badass Breeder's Guide
• Puppy Start Right
• Your Litter A to Z - Avidog

On October 4th, 2022,Marcella of MoonAcre Maremmaswhelped a beautiful litter Of Maremma Sheepdog puppies sired byUnfinished Acres Sevro. There are ten adorable pups, 6 boys and 4 girls.

​

Our newly installed cabinets and countertop came in very handy for recording each puppy and doing everything we needed to in order to ensure the pups got a good start in the world. I quickly discovered another upgrade I need to make, though. I like to keep the overhead lights off so the moms (and I) can rest between pups, but then it's too dark to see at the counter. So I am going to have my electrician install some under cabinet lights for when I just need lights for working but don't want the bright room lights on.

Since my dogs seem to prefer to deliver late at night I always spend the night in the Puppy Parlor with them. The air mattress isn't verycomfortable but it beats sleeping on the floor, or in the barn like I used to do! The first puppy arrivedaround 12:30 AM and the lastaround 10 AM so it was a long but good night!

​I am an admin on Maremma Sheepdog Open Forum, a Facebook group for Maremma owners and enthusiasts. This group is run by me and some other Maremma trainers so we often get questions about training issues. A question popped up recently, which I am quoting below. This is a scenario I hear ALL the time on our group and through my own website and business page, so I decided to write a blog post about the topic.

Here is the question:

"Seeking advice: I am working on a homestead in upstate NY, I arrived here a couple of weeks ago. The owners of the land recently acquired two 10 month old Maremmas (they are sisters as well). They acquired them late due to the original breeder having someone back out last minute, and then struggled to home them. Needless to say, they were not bonded with goats or sheep (they apparently grew up in a pig pen). They are now with 5 kids and 3 adult goats and chasing them CONSTANTLY. They will at times latch onto hind legs, and nip at their sides. Thankfully skin hasn't been broken yet, but unless they are supervised all day, they will spend all their time chasing the goats. So far, we have separated the Maremmas so they don't encourage each other. They share a fence line however so they can see each other and be comforted by each other's presence. We try to keep the herding border collie away for the time being, as it seemed like they were mimicking her herding instincts. We are worried that they were brought into the herd way at a much too late age, and aren't going to improve. Any suggestions are experience with this is very much appreciated!"

Here are my thoughts on the issues raised:

This is a disaster waiting to happen and unfortunately it's a story that I hear all too often. There are so many things going on here that it's going to take a long post to cover it all.

First of all there are two big red flags here and one well-intentioned mistake. First, it's not at all appropriate for 10 month old pups to be unsupervised with baby goats or sheep. Some rare pups mature early but they are the exception, not the rule. Most LGD's aren't considered trustworthy with baby ruminants or poultry until age 2 or later. It's not because they are bad pups. It's because they are pups. So remove the baby goats ASAP. Ten month old puppies shouldn't be guarding baby goats, particularly when little is known about the history, breeding or early socialization of the pups.

Second, a LGD should NEVER, EVER have unsupervised time with the stock in the presence of a herding dog or any non-LGD. It's ok for your LGD to interact with your other dogs, but not with the stock unless you trust your non-LGD and you are physically supervising the interactions and are sure the other dog isn't teaching the LGD's fun new games. The LGD's most certainly can and probably will pick up bad habits from the herding dog. And this is not because your herding dog is bad. It's because he's a herding dog. LGDS's and herding dogs are both purpose bred dogs. Bred for polar opposite purposes. (The OP knows this but I'm stressing it for the sake of those that don't.)

And lastly, these pups need to (temporarily) be separated from the stock but NOT from each other. LGD's need partners and young LGD's need appropriate playmates. A goat, sheep or chicken isn't a suitable playmate. Another puppy is. Usually allowing the puppy to have a partner reduces inappropriate behavior with stock. BUT if the puppies weren't properly socialized to begin with or have picked up bad habits, or if the stock isn't suited to the pups, then peer pressure can kick in and they can sometimes get into trouble together. You may need to separate the puppies from the stock temporarily, until you get things under control. So for now I would put both pups together next to the goats and don't allow either of them unsupervised with the animals until you can assess the situation and come up with a new plan.

Now to address the root of the problem and the question of whether the pups can improve or not.

People sometimes acquire puppies or dogs from dubious sources or without knowing much or anything about how those pups were raised. Then they are shocked and dismayed when they find the very dogs they bought to protect the stock have become a danger to them. It's not the new owners' fault. Most people really don't have any idea what's involved in properly socializing and training a LGD. In most cases they trusted the person who sold them the dogs and that person took the money and is long gone, not willing to give advice or point them to truly helpful resources and certainly not willing to take the puppies back. This is really a shame. In my opinion the breeder's responsibility to the puppies they bred continues as long as those dogs live. Meaning they should give lifetime support, encouragement and advice to the owner and be willing to take the dogs back if the owner can no longer keep them for ANY reason. But instead they either ignore the new puppy owner or tell them it must be their fault. It's not that a breeder can fix every problem but they certainly should do their best to help. But since this breeder in question obviously can't or won't support the buyer of her pups I'll do my best to give advice, and to share my own experiences with such dogs. (Yes, unfortunately I've had to learn this lesson the hard way, too. Which is why I feel so strongly about the subject.)

Pups chasing and harassing stock is a very serious issue. Now I am not talking about the occasional case of the "zoomies" many young dogs get. The zoomies is when the puppy is full of energy and feeling good and they suddenly decide that those goats or sheep would make a fun toy. There's a playful energy to it, not an aggressive one. It's still inappropriate but it's different, and usually pretty easy to fix by redirecting or switching out the stock. Nor am I talking about poultry. All pups need to be carefully supervised with poultry and most aren't totally poultry safe until around age 2, though some do mature earlier. But dogs of this age aggressively chasing and biting larger stock like sheep or goats is an entirely different matter. And there are multiple issues at play here.

The first is that the livestock needs to be matched to the developmental stage of the puppies. Baby lambs or goats are not appropriate stock for most 10 month old pups. They can visit the babies under supervision if they are well mannered, but they shouldn't be left alone with them. (I rarely leave any dog under age 2 unsupervised with baby animals or poultry.) Pups this age need to be with ADULT stock and the stock needs to be of the right temperament. You do not want aggressive stock because they could cause the pups to become fearful or even aggressive if they feel threatened and bullied. Regardless of what some people will tell you an animal that continually head butts a puppy for no reason is NOT a good puppy trainer.

On the other hand excessively flighty stock is also bad. A goat or sheep that runs every time the puppies make the slightest move actually excites the puppy and encourages it to chase. Chasing is a self rewarding behavior and once the puppy learns the habit it's very hard to break. So if you have such flighty stock you need to get them away from the puppy immediately. Even my goats, who have all been around Maremmas all their lives, do not all make suitable puppy trainers. Often times I'll notice a puppy chasing and all I need to do is remove one goat who's acting like a silly lunatic and everything is calm again. What you want is stock that looks at the puppy pulling on its ears as if to say "buzz off, kid" and completely ignores them. The puppy gets bored and the chasing stops. They still might try it again, because they are puppies, after all, but they will try it less and less. And when they realize they're not getting the response they want they will eventually quit trying.

Another issue is that most people, when they first get their LGD's, have stock that have never been around a LGD. They think of dogs as predators (because they are!) and they are sure you've lost your mind for bringing one into their midst. So that's why putting the puppy and the stock side by side, until they are acclimated to each other, is important. If you keep them side by side until the stock calmly accepts the puppy then you'll have a lot less chasing when you do put them together. If you bought your puppy from a breeder that properly socializes their pups with stock the pups will seek out the comfort of your stock and will be more likely to behave calmly. But your stock needs to get used to your pup. So give them time.

What if your puppies didn't get the best start?

The other big contributing factor in stock chasing is impropersocialization with stock when the pups were small. (Or no socialization at all.) This is a huge problem and more common than it should be. Irresponsible breeders put little to no effort into socializing the puppies and then a scenario like the OP's is the result. If you bought your pups from a breeder that failed to socialize the pups properly to stock then you're probably going to have a really hard time of it and a lot of work ahead of you. Contrary to what some people will tell you it's not all instinct with LGD's. It really does take nature AND nurture to produce a great LGD. You can't buy a puppy from a breeder who raises them in their house or on their patio and then put it out with your stock and expect instincts to just take over. It doesn't work that way. And if that breeder tells you that's an acceptable way to do it they are either lying to you or are ignorant of puppy development. LGD’s need to be socialized to stock almost from birth, in order to maximize the chances of success.

All puppies have acritical socialization periodthat begins once their ears and eyes open and end at roughly 12-14 weeks. (It varies by breed and dog.) This is when puppies need to be socialized INTENSIVELY with livestock, as well as with humans and to a variety of sights, sounds and experiences. A responsible breeder will have their puppies in close proximity to stock as soon as safely possibly. Definitely BEFORE 6 weeks and honestly by 3-4 weeks (with protected contact at first ) is the minimum I would accept. Once they can see and hear well they should be seeing and hearing the stock they will guard, or similar stock. If all they are seeing is the swimming pool, patio or the couch and TV then you've got a problem. And taking those patio pups for a walk past the chicken coop occasionally or even daily is NOT enough. In order to learn the "language" and "culture" of livestock, puppies need to be immersed in that "culture" 24/7 DURING the critical learning period. Those first 12 weeks are more important than any other time in the dog's entire life. You can certainly still train an older pup who missed this critical learning window, but the dog will never live up to their full potential. And it WILL be more work for you, I'm sorry to say. How do I know that? Because I made the same mistake myself. 🤦🏻‍♀️ So don't feel bad if you did it, because it's only through my own mistakes that I have learned these hard lessons. But hard lessons often help us grow and learn and do better so let my mistakes help you.

Three Kinds of Breeders

I have acquired Maremmas from eight different breeders and I have bred and raised several dogs of my own, as well as kept in contact withmultipleclients who've bought my pups over the years. I am not here to criticize other breeders, as we all have our own preferences and need to do what works for us. Raising puppies is hard work. Raising puppies and keeping them healthy and safe while also socializing them properly to livestock is REALLY hard work. Not everyone wants to sleep in the barn with their pregnant dogs (what I did before I built my puppy parlor) or trek back and forth to the barn to take care of those puppies for weeks on end. Personally I think if you want to raise puppies in your house or on your patio you should breed companion dogs instead of working LGD's but that's not my choice to make. It IS my choice to not ever buy puppies from such a breeder again and I won't. I have learned my lesson, several times. (Apparently once was not enough for me.) I won't make that mistake again. I promise.

The way I see it there are three ways breeders raise LGD puppies. First there are the "puppy mill" breeders. They are truly just lazy and greedy and are churning out pups without any real effort and with the least expense in order to maximize profits. The puppies could very well be "raised in a barn" but they still may not be getting any interaction with stock or any training. These are pups such as the OP's pups who were "raised in a pig pen". Often these pups are of questionable parentage and health. Unvaccinated, fed cheap dog food. These are the Craigslist dogs. Breed them, house them for 8 weeks (or less) and sell them quick and cheap. Repeat, repeat, repeat... These are the people that give breeders a bad name and they should be stopped. They should be arrested.

Then there are the "estate guardian" breeders. They are usually well to do and live in beautiful, high dollar homes with acreage. They may have a few token sheep, horses or chickens but they aren't serious farmers orhomesteaders. They just like having a "cool" or "rare" breed to lay around looking pretty and keeping coyotes from pooping on their fancy lawns. They usually have beautiful, well bred, healthy dogs, which are registered and health tested. They may have even imported dogs or acquired them from great breeding programs. Their dogs truly are beautiful but most often they aren't really LGD's. They are pool and patio guardians. These breeders put little to no effort into socializing their pups to livestock. Since that's not how they use their own dogs they don't understand the importance. They feel that keeping their puppies on their patio or in their house for the first weeks or months is perfectly acceptable. Maybe they just don't understand puppy development or maybe they do but they feel the compromise is worth it. They believe that it's reasonable for them to raise the pups on their patio or in the comfort of their own home for 2, 3 or 4 months and then the new owners can take the puppies home and do the rest. And this works great if the new owners need their pool or patio guarded. Not so much if they need their goats, sheep or chickens guarded. Remember the "critical learning periods"? This method wastes the best time of the puppies' lives. In my opinion these breeders are almost as bad as the puppy mill breeders. Sure they might be taking good care of their puppies but what about the stock those puppies are going to harass and maybe even kill, all because they didn't want to train their puppies? Breeding dogs that will be responsible for the safety and very lives of other creatures is a very serious responsibility and shouldn't be taken lightly.

Last are the truly "good breeders". These people are real farmers, livestock breeders and homesteaders. They depend on their dogs to keep their livestock safe, so they understand what it takes to produce a great LGD. They breed the kind of dogs they themselves need; true working LGD's. Their dogs might be registered or they might not, but the difference is in the effort, time and work the breeders put into their pups to ensure they are breeding true LGD's and not pool guardians, nor puppies that look like they came out of a rescue. These pups are born in a barn or a building near the stock, like my puppy parlor, or a dairy goat milking parlor or some similar set up designed to keep the pups safe and healthy without compromising the socialization of the pupswith stock. These breeders put a lot of time and work into their pups. The pups and their parents are healthy, well fed and receive proper veterinary care. And they are well loved, too. Hopefully the parents are health tested but not all are. But the puppies get the safe, gentle, intensive early socialization with livestock as well as with humans and various experiences that will ensure they are set up for success in their new homes. This is how I raise my pups and the only kind of breeder I will buy pups from, now that I've truly seen the difference.

We all Make Mistakes

​Luckily I have never made the mistake of buying puppies from a puppy mill breeder. I have acquired puppies from both the "estate guardian" breeder and the "good" breeder. The difference in these pups when I brought themhome was striking. The difference is still apparent as juvenile or adult dogs. Now I didn't purposely set out to acquire "estate guardian" dogs. It just never occurred to me until AFTER I had several of these dogs in my possession that not everyone raises puppies the way I do, and the way the breeders I respect do. And I didn't realize the impact the puppies' early socialization would have on them, and me. I thought, like so many people do, that once I got these puppies home and put them out with my goats and other livestock that everything would go great. Boy was I wrong.

These dogs were all between 8 weeks and 4 months old when I brought them home. All had various issues. Some dogs simply didn't bond well to my livestock (not wanting to be near them), some of them harassed and chased my goats constantly and aggressively, some not only killed chickens but ate them. (I didn't let them with the chickens but my chickens trust white dogs and sadly they trusted the wrong dogs and sometimes wandered where they shouldn't have.) I had strangers driving by stop and knock on my door to tell me the dogs wereharassing the goats. The most problematic of all the dogs actually broke a goat's leg. (She had seemed to be doing well but then she regressed.)

Nature or Nurture?

Now you might think this is bad genetics and for a while I worried that it was, too. But some of these dogs are completely unrelated to each other and some of them are related to dogs without temperament problemsthat were bred by me or by other breeders. The one difference is the early socialization of the puppies. If they were raised similarly to how I raise my pups they acclimated to my herdimmediately and had few, if any, issues with inappropriate behavior with stock. If they were not raised in this manner they were hell on wheels. I have owned and trained a lot of Maremmas and I have NEVER been so challenged as I have been by these dogs. Unfortunately once I had them I couldn't do much but try to manage them. I certainly couldn't sell them to someone as LGD's. That would be disastrous and I'm not going to do that to the person or the dog. I would either end up getting the dogs back with more problems than before, or they would get dumped. And they might harm or even kill someone's stock. Definitely not an option. They are friendly with humans and I considered placing some of them in pet homes but the right home never came along. So here they stayed. And I won't lie, it's been ROUGH. But we are finely, after months and months, seeing progress. The older the dogs get the more they have settled.

But I had to be VERY careful about livestock selection with all of them, as well as choosing partners for them. I'm very committed to having my dogs be with livestock as well as to always have a working partner. All of these dogs are dominant with other dogs so finding a dog they get along with was tricky. (I couldn't put them all togetherbecause they would fight with each other. Each one needed a very mellow dog partner, which meant that my easier dogs were often required to be put on babysitting duty with these difficult dogs, which is somewhat of a waste of their talent.) Finding stock they could be safe with was even trickier. Some absolutely couldn't be trusted with poultry, though one is better with poultry than with goats. Some chase horses, which would normally be a good choice for "biker chick" dogs. Some of them were too rough for my dairy goat does but did ok with my Mini Nubian bucks, who are big and stinky and not easily intimidated. I experimented until I found stock each dog seemed to do well with as well as a partner they got along with. Then I kept watching for signs of either problems or improvement. Over time they all made progress, though it was very slow progress. Most of them have progressed from bucks, to larger Nubian and Mini Nubian does, to Nigerian Dwarf does. (One of them is still only with the larger does but I will try her with Nigerians soon.) One of them is now guarding chickens and ducks and behaving perfectly. Another that used to chase horses is much better with them. I haven't tried them with baby goats yet but I think eventually they will be ok with them. Maybe not newborns but older kids.

How did I achieve these results? Well I didn't shock the dogs or use dangle sticks or any aversive, that's for sure. What training I did was only positive because that's the only way I train. But mostly I just matched the dogs with stock they could be safe with and dogs they got along with and waited for them to mature. Sometimes I made mistakes, such as when Cedar's leg was broken. Then it was back to the buck pasture for that dog. For most of them they were around 1.5-2 years old before I saw any real improvement. But luckily once I did things moved pretty quickly. For some it was almost like a switch went off. They just matured and got tired of their games. Mostly. They grew up.

But what's very telling is that I see the same level of maturity out of 6-10 month old pups that were bred and raised by me or breeders who use similarmethodsas I do out of these 18-24 month old dogs that were raised the opposite way. So yeah, these dogs can improve, but boy is it a lot of work. And I for one do not want to work that hard or wait that long for a puppy to mature and stop harassing stock. I would rather spend the first few months working hard to do everything I can to ensure those pups get a good start so I can relax later. But that's what works for me. Work smarter, not harder. Which is why I now ask to see PROOF (photos) of how a breeder socializes their pups before I'll consider buying a puppy from them. I don't care how beautiful your dog is or how good its hip scores are, if those puppies haven't gotten a proper start with livestock I am not interested.

Will My Dog's Behavior Improve?

If you've already bought dogs that didn't get the start they should have, don't despair, there is hope. With time and patience those instincts most likely will kick in and overcome the lack of socialization and you will probably end up with a good, if not great, LGD. It's notthe dog's fault they weren't set up for success by their breeder. I had to remind myself of that fact over and over when I would get frustrated with those dogs. They were behaving exactly as they were socialized to do. Even blaming the breeder was pointless. I should have done my research. I should have paid more attention. What mattered was accepting the dogs I now had and working to bring out the best I could in them. It was my job to be patient with them and teach them how I wanted them to behave. So try to be patient with your pups and eventually you'll be rewarded.

But if you haven't bought your pups yet, do yourself a favor. Do a lot of research before you choose a breeder. Don't just ask to see pedigrees and health test results. Ask for PROOF that those puppies are getting the proper socialization with stock. (Spend a little time on my website and social media and you'll find hundreds of photo of my dogs and puppies with stock.) Because that's exactly what I didn't notice when I made my mistake. I didn't notice what was missing in those cute puppy photos. Livestock. That's what was missing. There were no photos of the puppies with stock because they weren't with it. They were on the patio, by the pool, by the jacuzzi, in the house. Anywhere but with livestock.) So if the breeder can't show you lots of photos of both their parent dogs AND the puppies with livestock do yourself a huge favor. Find one that can. Because we all have cameras in our pockets, everywhere we go. It's called a cell phone. If the breeder isn't taking photos of their pups (or adult dogs, for that matter) with livestock it's because they aren't with stock. And you can never redo the critical learning period.

Embark Vet

Sky Island's Gianna

When we first started breeding Maremmas we raised our puppies in our dairy goat barn , so that the puppies could be socialized with the goats and other animals from birth. We had one litter a year and this worked very well for a while, even though it was a lot of work to continually set up and then take down the whelping equipment when we needed the space for goats. But when we became Maremma Sheepdog Club of America Code of Ethics Breeders andbegan having more litters and bigger kid crops, all this moving back and forth and sharing space became harder and harder. Then beginning in 2020 we experienced some challenges due to extremes of weather (too hot or too cold) and extremely bad smoke from nearby forest fires. We realized that raising puppies in the barn was no longer ideal since we have no control over nature, nor over when our dogs were ready to breed. (Goats come in heat roughlyevery 3 weeks so it's not hard to time kidding for when it's convenient or when the weather will be nice. Dogs are much trickier with less options other than breed now or don't breed at all this year.)

​But yet we were committed to ensuring that our puppies were whelped and raised in close proximity to livestock so that they wouldn't miss out on that very important early socialization period. Whelping in our house was not an option for this reason. That might be an acceptable choice for breeders who don't feel that raising their puppies with livestock from an early age is important, but for us it we were not willing to sacrifice proper socialization for health (both are important), or for our own comfort and convenience. We wanted it all, and we were determined to have it!

We decided that the best plan was to build a dedicated, climate controlled combination whelping facility and dairy goat milking parlor within one of our goat pastures, where the puppies would be able to be kept at the right temperature and where they would be clean, healthy and safe, but where they would still be continually surrounded by livestock and the sights and sounds of barn life. So the idea of our Puppy Parlor was born!(Puppy whelping room + milking parlor = Puppy Parlor!)

Little did we know how long the project would take. We started it in January 2021, when we ordered a 14 x 30' "garden shed" from a California based company. (I won't mention their name because they were awful to work with and very unethical. We should have gone with TuffShed.) But we soon found that the builder had lied to us about what would be required to get the building permitted. We had one delay after another, and more and more hoops to jump through and more added expenses. I'm not exaggerating when I say that many tears were shed over this building!Nor am I exaggerating when I say that the project ended up costing MUCH more than we ever expected. But it was worth every hard earned penny in the end.

“What techniques should be avoided in training?
An appropriate trainer should avoid any use of training tools that involve pain (choke chains, prong collars, or electronic shock collars), intimidation (squirt bottles, shaker noise cans, compressed air cans, shouting, staring, or forceful manipulation such as “alpha rolls” or “dominance downs”), physical correction techniques
(leash jerking, physical force), or flooding (“exposure”). The learner must always feel safe and have the ability to “opt out” of training sessions. All efforts should be made to communicate effectively and respectfully with the learner.

Why should aversive training techniques be avoided?
The consequences and fallout from aversive training methods have been proven and are well documented. These include increased anxiety and fear-related aggression, avoidance, and learned helplessness. Animals may be less motivated to engage in training and less likely to interact with human members of the household.”

To read the complete document from the AVSAB see the link below:

https://karenpryoracademy.com/avsab-advocates-for-humane-reward-based-training/